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Plato and Rhetoric 427-346 BC (81yrs.)

Plato and Rhetoric 427-346 BC (81yrs.). Life Wealthy traveling Athenian Alfred North Whitehead ”footnotes” Philosopher of forms, “idealism” Impetus: Attack Sophists May have coined the word “Rhetoric”. Plato. Perfect Form. Plato Close-up. Plato on Rhetoric. Three works on Rhetoric:

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Plato and Rhetoric 427-346 BC (81yrs.)

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  1. Plato and Rhetoric427-346 BC (81yrs.) • Life • Wealthy traveling Athenian • Alfred North Whitehead ”footnotes” • Philosopher of forms, “idealism” • Impetus: Attack Sophists • May have coined the word “Rhetoric”

  2. Plato • Perfect Form

  3. Plato Close-up

  4. Plato on Rhetoric • Three works on Rhetoric: -The Apology -The Gorgias -The Phaedrus

  5. The Apology (399 BC) • After the fact version of Socrates’ trial • Socrates is charged with • Atheism • Corruption of youth • Believes truth is • self evident and personal • refuses to use ad hominem argument and appeals to pathos as the sophists do • Kennedy (pp. 44-45) Click here for pages.

  6. Socrates • Truth

  7. Socrates • The Hemlock

  8. The Gorgias (385 BC) • Early work • Major ideas implied or stated • Dialectic nature of truth “remembered” in dialogue among experts • Rhetoric is pre-selected communication in order to defend opinions

  9. The GorgiasAttacking Rhetoric • Three rounds of speeches • First Gorgias and Socrates • Second Polus and Socrates • Third Challicles and Socrates

  10. The GorgiasContinued • Topics • What is the nature of rhetoric? • Does rhetoric by its very nature tend to mislead? • What happens to a society when persuasion is a basis for law and justice? (Herrick, p. 54) • Theme • The basis of justice • Doxa (mere public opinion) vs Episteme (true knowledge)

  11. Socrates/Plato and GorgiasRound One • Socrates/Plato: What is the art or techne (knowledge) rhetoric offers? (a question) • Gorgias: Rhetoric is concerned with words, persuasive words. • Socrates/Plato: Not a definition, because all disciplines use persuasion. • Episteme (true knowledge) vs pistis (mere opinion.

  12. Socrates/Plato and GorgiasRound One Continued • Justice involves episteme. Justice is a lofty, time consuming topic. Public is ignorant. • The rhetorician, then, is not a teacher of law courts and other public gatherings as to what is right or wrong, but merely a creator of beliefs; for evidently he could never instruct so large a gathering in so short a time (445) (Herrick, p. 56).

  13. Socrates/Plato and PolusRound Two • Socrates vs Polus (the colt) • Polus: “Rhetoric is the greatest power in the country.” • Plato: Comparisons • The arts vs sham arts

  14. Socrates/Plato and PolusRound Two: True and Sham Arts • The Arts of Health • Body Soul • Maintain: gymnastics legislation • Restore: medicine justice • The Sham Arts of Health • BodySoul • Maintain: make-up sophistic • Restore: cookery rhetoric

  15. Socrates/Plato and CalliclesRound Three • Callicles: Natural Justice or the rule of the intelligent over the baser. • Machiavellian • A wann’a be? A Yuppie? A Republican? (the ladder of success--”pull it up after you”)

  16. Reflections on the Gorgias • Rhetoric merely a means to justice: A Representational Model of Communication • Plato rejects sophists arguments and uses them: probabilities, ridicule (Albert Einstein) • Revenge on Callicles • Rejection of transient notion of truth (time, justice and juries)

  17. The Phaedrus (367 BC) • Twenty years after the Gorgias • An older, mellower Plato • Gorgias “anger,” Phaedras “love” • Gorgias “in the name of morality reject rhetoric”Romilly, p. 71

  18. The Phaedrus (continued) • Content: A conversation with a young sophist student • Intellectually and physically attractive • Love: “divine madness” a “trance entered by poets” • The Soul has three parts

  19. The Phaedrus and the Soul • The three parts (Charioteer) • 1. Loves wisdom 2. Loves nobility and honor 3. Loves appetite or lusts • Richard Weaver--Rhetoric as: • Rape, Seduction, or Love

  20. The Phaedrus and Rhetoric • Rhetoric therefore is the art of influencing souls • Psychagogia “leading souls” • Know “the truth” first, then • Adapting to audience’s soul is the art of rhetoric--soul of love, soul of honor, soul of lust • Is “soul talk” the same as “understanding” or “meeting of meaning?” • Justice is realized when the lower submits to lover of wisdom. (Micah 6:8—justly, love mercy, walk humbly)

  21. The Phaedrus (Comments/Criticisms) • The relationship of rhetoric to truth • discover? or propagate? (mere advocacy) • Create the truth? • Rhetoric and Dialectic both can produce evil • Listen for soul--Remembering? • Is this tradition or God?

  22. The Phaedrus (Comments/Criticisms) • Kennedy p. 58 “Plato’s is an impractical rhetoric, . . . How can we know everyone's soul? • Yet, we can know our soul “that which is most personal is also most general” • Plato starts with ontology or being, thus soul talk is remembering or recalling (reincarnation) • Comparing the Gorgias and the Phaedrus (overhead) • Are our minds like his? Alfred North Whitehead

  23. The Phaedrus (Comments/Criticisms) • Do you believe in true love? • Do you know Clinton is lying? • Others? • How can you know what you have never experienced? Remembering? • Comparing Gorgias to Phaedrus (click here)

  24. Two Language Realities • Sophists Plato • Experiential Reflectionism • The Words Ideas • Clinton Presidential

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