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Holy Trinity - 22

Holy Trinity - 22. The Third Person Who Proceeds from the Father ( and the Son). Where is God?. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Experience. Let’s say you want to be a pastor. Say this out loud: I want to be a pastor! Problem is, the ELCA will not ordain you!

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Holy Trinity - 22

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  1. Holy Trinity - 22 The Third Person Who Proceeds from the Father (and the Son)

  2. Where is God? • 1. • 2. • 3. • 4. • 5.

  3. Experience • Let’s say you want to be a pastor. Say this out loud: I want to be a pastor! • Problem is, the ELCA will not ordain you! • Solution: You have friends in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Tanzania who say, “We will ordain you!” • So you go to Tanzania and are ordained in that church. • Now you come back to the ELCA as an ordained pastor of the ELCTanzania and ask to be recognized as an ordained pastor by the very group that did NOT want to ordain you! Is there a problem here???

  4. Discussion & reflection: • As an ordained pastor, what are your primary responsibilities? • “The church in which you are to be ordained confesses the Holy Scriptures and the Word of God and are the norm of its faith and life. We accept, teach, and confess the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian Creeds. We also acknowledge that the Lutheran Confessions are true witnesses and faithful expositions of the Holy Scriptures. Will you therefore preach and teach in accordance with the Holy Scriptures and these creeds and confessions?I will, and I ask God to help me.” (emphasis added)

  5. Discussion & reflection: • The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Western Catholic Church separated from each other in 1054 A.D. and was called the Great Schism. • The EasternOrthodox Church includes : The Ethiopian Coptic Church, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Orthodox Church of America, etc. • WesternCatholic Churches include: The Roman Catholic Church, Anglican (Episcopal) Churches, Lutheran Churches etc.

  6. Discussion & reflection: • One of the reasons for the “Great Schism” was the changing of the Nicene Creed by the West. Can you explain, in your own words, whether the phrase, “…and the son” should be included in the Nicene Creed? • Hilary of Poitiers (c 300 – c 368, France) I hold fast in my consciousness the truth that your Holy Spirit is from you (Father) and through him (the Son), although I cannot by my intellect comprehend it. For in your spiritual things I am dull.”

  7. Discussion & reflection: • As a Lutheran, we are part of the Western Catholic Church, along with the Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. Is it OK for us to say, in the Nicene Creed, the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son? • Tertullian (c 160 - c 220, Italy) “I consider the Spirit as coming from nowhere else than from the Father through the Son.”

  8. Discussion & reflection: • Or should we omit “…and the Son” like the Eastern Orthodox churches do? • Epiphanius of Salamis (c 310 – 403, Cyprus) Thus we believe in him: that he is the Holy Spirit … uncreated, proceeding from the Father and receiving of the Son…”

  9. Discussion & reflection: • West: Ambrose (c 337 – 4 April 397, Italy) The Holy Spirit also, when he proceeds from the Father and the Son, is not separated from the Father or separated from the Son. • East: Basil of Caesarea (330 – 1 Jan 379, Turkey) The Spirit is described to be of God, not in the sense that all things are of God, but because he proceeds from the mouth of the Father and is not begotten like the Son.

  10. Discussion & reflection: • 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.” John 15:26 ESV • Did this text say, “who proceeds from the Father and the Son?

  11. Discussion & reflection: • Does any of this make any difference? Does it make a difference to your faith whether the creed says “and the Son?” • Leontius of Byzantium (c 485 – c 543, Turkey) These three persons differ from one another in nothing except their “properties.” … The Son and the Spirit differ only in that the Son is generated from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from him. How one is generated the other proceeds we are not concerned to know.

  12. Discussion & reflection: • What is most important in this discussion is that Jesus kept his promise and sent the Holy Spirit to us. The Holy Spirit was given to us in our baptism and has faithfully walked with us every day since!

  13. Written reflection Name: Date: • What was most important to you in today’s lesson?

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